Talk:Solid Snake
With all due respect Fantomas, I'd rather see this discussion updated rather than left with updates that date all the way back to yesteryear. So, unless you object to this deletion, please feel free to make new one's. :That's fine, I was getting tired of seeing all the old discussion as well! --Fantomas 08:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Regarding Snake's Personality and Views I'll go first, now that we know that we know that the script from Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes is canonical with the series (minus the cutscenes themselves) shouldn't we change the way it was worded to how it is from the remake? :I don't think it makes too much difference to be honest. It all depends on what each persons idea of "canon" is though, which complicates things. Some people refuse to accept The Twin Snakes as canon, and some people prefer it over the original. Maybe we should just leave it as is? --Fantomas 08:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC) ::Ahh to tell you the truth, I think it kinda discredits everyone who worked on the remake including the voice actors themselfs who went to the trouble of doing it all over again, but differently. Plus the way I see it, if Snake remembers it that way, we should remember the script that way too. Just disregard all the pompus and confusing Matrix-style scenes that went with it, and remember just the less dramatic scenes that came with the PS1 version as it shows in MGS4 I say. : i just belive that since Snake views most of his memories in MGS1 or Twin Snakes as form MGS1 including the graphics then thats the canon. and MGS1 is also the MGS1 Hideo belives is the main one over MGS: TS you'll notice most of the recurring characters have the same voice e.g. Mei Ling. does anyone know where Naomi got that voice? in MGS1 she was kinda Russian is it the MGS: TS voice actor. Onikage01 19:33, 6 January 2009 (UTC) ::Russian?!?!?!? Nah, she was English in the original. sorta. Mei Ling had a slight Chinese accent in the original, too. Now, both of these disappeared for TTS, the idea being that since they both grew up in America it seemed kind of more logical if they both had more American accents. Mei Ling and Naomi both have American accents in MGS4. All the audio flashbacks from Shadow Moses are also from TTS (I am aware of the real reason behind this, but that doesn't change that fact). Regardless of this, all the visual flashbacks seem to MGS1 graphics. This causes some bizarre canonicity issues, whereby the video of MGS1 and the audio of TTS are canonical, but vice-versa is not. Maybe that should be the way re regard it? That seems to keep everybody happy, keeping all the flashbacks canonical and allowing people to say that those annoying matrix-like scenes were non-canonical. Chaos91 20:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC) Snake's lifespan I think there's a lot of confusion over the part of Act 2 when Naomi tells Snake he's got "half a year" -- it's not that she thinks he'll only live 6 more months due to his aging; she specifically says that she isn't referring to his lifespan: Snake: How long do I have? Naomi: ...Half a year. reference to his smoking Don't. Snake. There's something I have to tell you. Snake: Now what? Naomi: You and I both know your body is approaching its limit. When I said another half a year, I wasn't talking about your lifespan. Listen to me. FOXDIE only kills its victims when the infected person's genetic code... Fully matches the genetic sequence programmed into the virus's receptors. In other words... It only attacks targets with specific genes. Snake: I know. That's what killed the AT president... And Liquid. Naomi: Yes. And at the same time, it's set up to protect those not designated as targets from the virus's harmful effects. Here... I'll show you. The receptors on the FOXDIE inside your body are breaking down. The rapid aging process is changing the environment within your body. As a result, the virus is starting to mutate. The viruses on the left are FOXDIE in its original form. The ones on the right I took from your body. They're already mutated. The receptors - they're wearing down. Snake: Meaning? Naomi: This mutated version of FOXDIE could activate... Even if the infected person's genetic pattern doesn't perfectly match the receptors. Which means the virus is becoming indiscriminate about what type of target it kills. (Sorry for the long reproduction of dialogue.) She goes on to say that he has 3 months until the virus mutates enough to begin to affect others. The 6-month limit is her estimation of when the virus will mutate enough to kill Snake himself. This is backed up by the fact that at the end of "Naked Son," when Snake finds out that the new strain of FOXDIE has neutralized the earlier mutated strain, he asks Big Boss, "Am I going to die?" -- the 6-month limit was for the FOXDIE, not the limit of his lifespan due to the accelerated aging. Big Boss even goes so far as to state that the new FOXDIE will eventually mutate as well, if Snake lives long enough, implying that he has more than 6 months as well. The fact that everyone is misquoting Naomi (when she specifically says she's not referring to the length of Snake's lifespan) is driving me crazy! We don't know how long he'll live, but the 6-month estimate was not for his lifespan. ^_^ :Sorry about that! I think a lot of the parts where that was written was when it was mentioned in one of the trailers, and we hadn't updated them yet. But still, thanks a lot for clearing it up. --Fantomas 21:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC) FOXDIE and AGING: The demise of Solid Snake. Solid Snake appears old in MGS4 since he was either injected with FOXDIE or it is a side effect of his conception as an artificially created human being. In the end of MGS4, Snake is said to have been dying and spends his remaining days alone. Numerous articles also indicate that MGS4 is the final story and that there will no longer be a Metal Gear sequel since Solid Snake is dying and that eliminating Ocelot is his final mission. However the story can still continue because of the following arguments: 1) Naked Snake his father was presumed to be dead but was in fact alive and is kept alive by the patriots through Nanotechnology. 2) If the patriots wish to keep Solid Snake alive, they would have developed a similar remedy for cloned warriors. 3) In addition, when Naked Snake dies it is due to unknown reasons. It is presumed that Naked Snake was killed by the Patriots remotely at that instance after revealing truths to Solid Snake. Power therefore is at the hands of the patriots and it is they who determine which soldier lives or dies. 4) In early 2008, an article indicated that Hideo Kojima is thinking about Metal Gear Solid 5. It was also announced that MGS4 was written in a way which indicated that it is the final story... or is it? Retrieved from "http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Solidgear" :Solid Snake was aging because of the limitations set on him when he was created. They tampered with his genes to make him age rapidly. As for the res of your comments: :1) There would be no point in keeping Solid alive. He's aging rapidly, and his cells are now useless. Also, there are no Patriots left, so why would anyone want to keep him alive? :2) Again there are no Patriots left. :3) Naked Snake didn't die by "unknown reasons", he was burned alive by Solid Snake (see here). If you're referring to when he dies at the end of MGS4, it was the result of the newer FOXDIE virus which was injected into Solid Snake by Drebin, this version of FOXDIE also killed EVA and Ocelot. :4) Kojima did mention he was thinking about MGS5, but he has also stated that MGS4 is the last Metal Gear game in the current storyline featuring Snake. He's stated several times that he wants other people to make more Metal Gear games, whether they focus on other characters (like Meryl and Johnny for example) or feature brand new characters. :Hope that helps! --Fantomas 09:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC) :Well, I sure hope Snake lives longer than most of us expect for him to live, because it just wouldn't be the same game without him. --User:BigBØss 2:12, 22 December 2008 I heard somewhere that if there is an MGS5 that it will not be from Konami ?!?!?! Bigbossash 18:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Whoever told you that is an idiot and you should never talk to them again. --Fantomas 19:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Fair enough, I thought it was a load of rubbish anyway just thought i'd bring it up Bigbossash 21:48, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Even IF there's a MGS5, we can definitely count Solid Snake out, as Kojima stated that he would not allow Snake to be used in any official continuations of the MGS series. LBP "Old Snake" is a costume for the upcoming LittleBIGPlanet game for the PS3. [[User:Myself 123|'Myself 123']] 11:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC) There is also Meryl, Raiden and I think Screaming Mantis although most of you will probably know this Bigbossash 21:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC) New biography I have streamlined the biography section. I hope there are no objections. Not 100% as the meaning of the "this section is being revamped" message under the GOTP section, but if someone is working on a better summary be my guest cause I had a little trouble doing that one. Chaos91 00:27, 23 December 2008 (UTC) :Yeah, I saw that. Good job. I was the one working on a better bio section, but I had run into a stump when trying to summarize the events of MGS4. There are a couple little bits I will add to your version (mainly regarding Snake's childhood), but other than that, it seems pretty good. I'll give it a more proper run-through later. --Fantomas 01:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC) As an Oregonian, I'm proud, surprised, and confused to find out that Snake was originally raised somewhere here in Oregon. But it should be noted that the only Kiddieland Amusement Park is an amusement park located just west of Chicago at the corner of North Avenue and First Avenue in Melrose Park, Illinois. Oaks Amusement Park would've made more sense. If he weekly went to Illinois from Oregon during the summertime to have the only amount of fun he can have in his childhood, then he or someone must've been particular about going to an amusement park about 1,706 miles away from home. If they always flew there, it'd always be a three hour trip. Much shorter than a thirty-one hour trip if they drove there. With the impracticallity of it all, it's a conundrum! :Dude, it's fiction. This sort of stuff happens all the time. --Fantomas 10:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC) are you taking into account when he was a child? Check this out, just some interesting trivia MGS4 appeared in a Cyril Takayama special. Lol, it was pretty interesting. Just thought it should be added. It's on youtube, if you want to watch it, but yeah. Snake MGA additions is this the same snake as in MGA2? If so wouldn't it be better to extend Snake (MGA2) rather than this massive one. If not then maybe it should have it's own article. --Drawde83 22:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC) :There was no need for a such a huge biography of the MGA Snake here. I've split it into its own article, but it needs a lot of work. I have never played MGA, so if someone familiar with the game could fix that page up - then great! -Chaos91 22:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC) nationalty it says hes american but isnt he half japanesse? :: He has some japanese in him, but the amount is uncertain. Yoji Shinkawa (lead MGS character designer) once spoke of Snake being British-Japanese in appearance in his mind. Regardless, he possesses American identification and was raised to adulthood in the USA. :::The amount isn't "uncertain" by any means, unless there is an uncertain amount of Japanese on Naked Snake's side. The Enfants Terrible were created by combining Big Boss' genetic data with a fertile egg taken from a Japanese woman. In other words, half of Snake's genetic code is from his father, Big Boss, and the other half is from an unknown Japanese woman. Atypicaloracle 19:24, February 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::Actually, that isn't correct. The unknown Japanese woman provided minimal, if any, genetic coding, it was just an egg cell to house Big Boss's DNA and grow it into a clone fetus. Kojima's explanation of Solid Snake having 'blood from the East' in this way is totally inaccurate. It is therefore due to Big Boss being of some Japanese descent, I'm sure he's referred to as third-generation Japanese-American in some official sources (exactly which ones I'm not sure), similar to Master Miller. --Bluerock 20:16, February 12, 2010 (UTC) dazed ok i use to think i knew it but after reding im kunfused O_o so on metal gear solid liquid snake is the infeur clone and solid snake is the supuer clone right, but liqiud thought he was the better clone and thought solid was the crap clone right?--[[User:Noname the hero|'Noname The Hero']] ([[User talk:noname the hero|'Hero Talk']]) 18:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC) :No, it's the other way around. Liquid was the Superior clone, but he thought he was the inferior one, just as Snake was the inferior clone whom Liquid was told was the superior one. --Fantomas 18:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC) ::But then why does solid look so much like big boss, and if you are telling me the truth then that just made solid snake even more of a bad ass, wow the crap clone beat the better clone even when that better clone was useing a metal gear and not just a metal gear, Metal gear rex, and its ironic that the better clone coudint even kill the crap clone with metal gear rex while the crap clone was just runing around on the ground. but the crap clone used the metal gear rex to beat the better clone who was in metal gear ray.--[[User:Noname the hero|'Noname The Hero']] ([[User talk:noname the hero|'Hero Talk']]) 18:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC) :::In answer to your first question: it's a video game, it doesn't follow our rules. Snake didn't look more like Big Boss until MGS3 when young Big Boss was shown, and I believe the reason for that is because Kojima wanted people to think you actually were playing as Solid Snake. It didn't work, no one fell for it, we all knew it was Big Boss, but it was a fair attempt on Kojima's part. :::In response to your part about the REX vs. RAY fight, yes. That whole fight was a metaphor for how Snake, the inferior clone, always manages to one up Liquid, the superior clone, even when they're fighting in Metal Gear's which mirror their own respective inferiority/superiority. It was one of my favourite moments in MGS4. --Fantomas 18:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC) I fell for the trick on snake eater :( i really thought it was solid snake untill i played MGS3--[[User:Noname the hero|'Noname The Hero']] ([[User talk:noname the hero|'Hero Talk']]) 18:31, 21 May 2009 (UTC) :The theme behind MGS was the whole nature vs nurture debate. If you look at their experiences Solid Snake was a hero that had saved the world several times before. While Liquid had been a POW in Iraq that was obsessed over his inferiority (even though he wasn't). All of this gave Solid Snake the mental edge. And at the end it didn't matter because FOXDIE could have killed either of them regardless of their abilities (yeah I know Solid Snake lived but that was the message I got out of it). --Drawde83 21:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC) ::He's actually talking about the MGS1 Rex versus Snake fight there. Rex beating Ray isn't actually much of a surprise; Ray is a missile bus designed to hunt targets at long range in coordinated groups while Rex is a walking tank designed to defend itself against other armoured vehicles. In a direct-fire matchup one-on-one, none of Ray's advantages really matter and the limited range of motion of its weapons (especially the guns on the tips of the 'wings') really hurt it. Plus it was a mass-prod Ray, since it had no tail. MGS2 is pretty clear that massprod Ray armour is pathetic; even Soldus' P90 could kill them. I'd say really it was only because it was a severely damaged Rex against a pristine Ray that it was even a fight. Evil Tim 09:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC) :::He actually does mention the RAY Vs. REX fight right at the end there. But, I don't recall anywhere that states RAY was designed to hunt at long range in coordinated groups. What I do know is that RAY was specifically designed as a REX killer. It's speed and agility outdo REX's ten-fold. --Fantomas 10:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC) ::It comes from looking at the armament, really; RAY's rotary guns are ridiculously placed and the hydro-cutter is in a limited traverse mounting and is only effective at extremely short ranges. That suggests its primary weapon against another Metal Gear would be missiles; presumably the idea would be for a coordinated group to attack at extreme range and swamp a target with more missiles than it could shoot down while using their high mobility for evading return fire. The fact that the mass-prod RAY is specifically designed for large-scale deployment with a coordinating AI would bring to mind, say, a party of huntsmen with longbows against a single lion. Sure, they're trained to kill lions. They're good at it together. That doesn't mean one huntsman with knife and bow would be a good match for one lion at close range, though. Evil Tim 10:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC) ::It was only ever said that Solid inherited the inferior "soldier genes." he could have very well inherited other dominant genes that help determine appearance. Cheesedude 21:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Quotes I was thinking mabey we sould make a quote section. You know like Epic quotes like the one that The boss says "One must die and one must live. No victory, no defeat. The survivor will carry on the fight. It is our destiny... The one who survives will inherit the title of Boss. And the one who inherits the title of Boss will face an existence of endless battle." that would go on The Boss's page and like the one when Gray fox says "We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in.". Becuse i have been looking for a soruce of metal gear quotes. --[[User:Noname the hero|'Noname The Hero']] ([[User talk:noname the hero|'Hero Talk']]) This is the liberty we've won for ourselves....OUTER HAVEN 20:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC) :Actually, now that you bring that up, maybe we could make quote articles, such as "Metal Gear Solid quotes", "Metal Gear Solid 2 quotes", "Metal Gear Solid 3 quotes", etc.--Richardtalk 21:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC) :: I'm for it. However some of these quotes get repeated in different games. would it be better to put them all on one page so that you can put the different situations it was used under the same heading. Or another option could be quote pages by character. --Drawde83 00:29, 26 June 2009 (UTC) :::I like Richard's idea an awful lot. --Fantomas 05:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC) Ain't snake already dead Due to the rapid aging ain't snakes supossed to be dead already? - TraitorousDog :Yes, according to the Patriots. But he got off the tanker. [[User_talk:The.Dreadnought|T'he']]' DreadnoughT'' 18:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC) ::No, I think he's one of those people that believes that, because it's been six months since MGS4 came out, and since Snake apparently had "six months left to live", he is now officially dead. These people are of course forgetting two things: ::1) Naomi said Snake had six months left to live because of the mutated FOXDIE, which was destroyed thanks to the newer FOXDIE injected into him by Drebin, and ::2) MGS4 is set in 2014. --Fantomas 19:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Snake's death sticks Should it be added to trivia section that he prefers cigarettes while Big Boss preferred cigars? Just wondering. :No, anyone that has spent any time playing the games will know that. --Drawde83 02:37, December 1, 2009 (UTC) Alright, I didn't think so. Thanks. Snake's AKAs I just want it to be noted that I added an overlooked AKA for Snake from MGS1, right before the second fight with Raven he refers to Snake as "Kasack." It means the same thing as "Cossack" which means: "One of a warlike, pastoral people, skillful as horsemen, inhabiting different parts of the Russian empire and furnishing valuable contingents of irregular cavalry to its armies, those of Little Russia and those of the Don forming the principal divisions." but anyway, obviously someone didn't believe me and instead of checking just went ahead and deleted it ever so graciously. ::It was possibly I who deleted the Kasack entry, but I did give a reason for it. Snake has never been known by the name Kasack, and so is not an alias. However, since you've done a bit of research into the meaning of the word, I guess there's no harm in adding it to the trivia section. --Bluerock 13:46, December 19, 2009 (UTC) Locked? Why can I not edit Solid Snake's page? Was there an edit war or something? Bluerock 18:14, January 17, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, there was. A certain IP user and Zepp900 had gotten into a fight in regards to whether Solid, Liquid, and Solidus actually appeared in Portable Ops (IP 70's reason for claiming that they appeared was because of Elisa's prophetic vision on her deathbed.). As a result, Liquid and Solidus's pages were locked as well. Liquid's page has finally been unlocked, but Solid and Solidus's pages are still locked up, and I'm waiting until they unlock it. Weedle McHairybug 18:49, January 17, 2010 (UTC) ::Sorry guys. I'm lazy and forgetful. --Fantomas 19:05, January 17, 2010 (UTC) Eye color Were Solid Snake's eyes green in MGS2? I don't think they were blue in that game. Bluerock 14:34, January 26, 2010 (UTC) :I can't find any decent pictures right now, but they do look very green, yes. --Fantomas 16:33, January 26, 2010 (UTC) ::I thought they might be. I wonder why they changed it, then went back, as they were also blue in the MSX2 games: ::MG1 - blue (you can just make out the pixel on his radio portrait) ::MG2 - blue, both original appearance (based on Mel Gibson) and Shinkawa image update from rerelease ::MGS - difficult to determine in Shinkawa's art, and also due to in-game graphics ::Not sure about The Twin Snakes though. --Bluerock 17:18, January 26, 2010 (UTC) Solid Snake image MGS1 I think the image from MGS1 is more orginal than the twin snakes images of Snake.Kennedy 3421 23:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)Kennedy 3421 :Both of the images are from MGS1. The file name just says "The Twin Snakes", but it's not actually from The Twin Snakes. --Fantomas 00:27, February 25, 2010 (UTC) Novel details I don't see the problem with adding details from the novel as long as they don't contradict events established in the games. As for TTS, the game's story is identical to the original, the only things that could be seen as non-canon is the portrayal of characters in cutscenes, which were often a bit over the top. Same goes for the novel, such as some of Snake's dialogue (ugh!). --Bluerock 01:59, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Apocrypha I move that any information supported only by apocryphal mentions (such as The Twin Snakes, the comic book series, and Raymond Benson's "novels") be disallowed inclusion in this article. The content is unsubstantiated and the only arguments towards it being canon are conjecture at best with no real factual basis apart from fan speculation. The argument of "well, it doesn't contradict anything already established, so it must be correct!" is faulty logic as well. Lets try and keep some higher standards here, please. 02:02, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :conjecture? You DO realize that Hideo Kojima was the guy who is responsible for creating the series in the first place, right?! If he was directly involved with the novel (which going by the copyright date, the Acknowledgements section, as well as it saying "the official novel" in the game, he was), then it IS canon. If this isn't canon, then absolutely everything in the series isn't canon either and are standalones. Being mentioned? Conjecture! official timeline? Conjecture! From I can tell, your statements show that that means that any game isn't canon, and there is no canonicity towards anything in the game. Weedle McHairybug 02:06, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : First, calm your temper please. It's conjecture that you assume the novel is canon based on a "special thanks" addendum. You're drawing conclusions from literally no relevant information. There's no argument on the subject of in-game content because of Kojima's very direct, very clearly documented involvement in the process. His name is all over it with very specific citations. The novel, however, is one man's artistic (and occasionally loose) interpretation of a script handed to him for the purpose of adaptation. The novel was written by Raymond Benson; not Hideo Kojima. Please understand the difference. 02:19, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Don't forget we had the "Official" Mission Handbook. The fact is that no one can say for sure whether elements in these types of media are canon or not. That's why references are provided so that the reader can judge for themselves. Since this novel stuff is disputed it may as well be added to the behind the scenes section.--Bluerock 02:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::The problem is that we already have the Les Enfants Terribles event article covering stuff from the novel, as well as the fact that we have Master Miller's death in the article. Also, why would Hideo Kojima even bother helping Raymond Benson in regards to the novelization if it wasn't canon? If I were him, the novel would be riddled with countless errors for all I care, since I didn't write it and thus wouldn't matter to me if it had errors, since I never wrote it. Weedle McHairybug 02:16, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::: Since you want to nit-pick the subject, I could argue over the countless dialogue differences between MGS1, TTS, the comic book series, and the novel. Which lines of dialogue would you say are canon then? 02:22, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::We also have this: ::::Copyright © 2008 by Kojima Digital entertainment. All rights reserved. Used under authorization. ::::This would NOT have appeared if it wasn't canon. I know I wouldn't have given it the copyright if it weren't canon. Not to mention that the novelization even briefly referred to Snake nearly committing suicide in MGS4, and that definitely wasn't in the script. Heck, I doubt that the reference to Revolver Ocelot duel during Operation Snake Eater was even in the script either. So if there is any proof, this is. And another thing, at least according to Fantomas, the Novelization had more direct involvement from Hideo Kojima than TTS or the Digital Graphic Novels. Ask him if you don't believe me. He might even give you more proof. Weedle McHairybug 02:27, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::: No offense, but you clearly don't understand how copyrights work if you think they automatically make something canon. There's zero correlation between the legal ownership of an intellectual property and its literary continuity. Moving on, you can claim that "well, X person told me this, and you can ask them if you want" as much as you like, but that isn't considered a valid citation. Either find something that says "Hideo Kojima personally supervised the authoring of this document and confirms its canonicity" or stop editing the article based on your personal assumptions and deductions. 02:33, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::: Oh yeah, and one more thing, the way to consider it canon is if the creator had some sort of direct involvement in the work. Snake's Revenge, Ghost Babel, Ac!d, those games did NOT have Hideo Kojima working on them at all, so it is obvious as to their stance in canon. Fantomas even states its canon anyhow. Ask him if you don't believe me. I'll even link you to his talk page: User Talk:Fantomas. Fantomas, please get over here so we can finish this! Weedle McHairybug 02:36, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Actually, Kojima was both producer and supervising director for Ghost Babel, and he was producer for both AC!D games. Get your facts straight. And again, you're using faulty logic to form your argument. If the "Kojima had direct involvement" angle is your entire basis for calling the novel "canon" (which isn't a cited fact, for the record), you may as well include a segment in Naked Snake's biography about how he went on a mission to stop a bunch of monkeys in Tselinoyarsk. And again, one person's word-of-mouth "confirmation" of a detail is not a valid citation. I'm not trying to cause trouble, but you clearly don't understand how any of this works. 02:46, March 20, 2010 (UTC) If it doesn't contradict established events, whats the problem? It's just another author expanding on some of the story details. It doesn't have to come straight from Kojima's mouth you know. Do you think he personally supervised the authoring of Portable Ops's script, and even then, how could you prove it if he did? It's officially licensed by Konami so why not add in this info? It can always be removed if future games state that things actually occurred differently. --Bluerock 02:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : Because that's faulty reasoning. To extrapolate, by that logic I could add a comment that Solid Snake has six toes on one foot. Because we've never seen him without his shoes on and because there's nothing in the canon that contradicts it, you may as well accept it as true. Obviously, this is an exaggerated example, but the reasoning behind it is similar. 02:46, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : ::Well, unless an official adaptation says he does have six toes then you don't just add in silly things like that. The events we are discussing are actually detailed in a source that has been officially licensed by the game developers. They don't have a problem with the book, why do you? The writer's style is not to my taste either but that doesn't mean the events described should just be ignored simply because Kojima didn't dictate them to Benson. --Bluerock 02:54, March 20, 2010 (UTC :: ::You're kinda missing the point. To put it into a different perspective, if you want to include this kind of information from the novel as "canon", you'll also need to edit the MGS1 page to include the segment of the MGS1 comic where Psycho Mantis hypnotizes Snake into thinking that Master Miller showed up to help him complete his mission. You might also want to add some remarks about Snake backflipping off of missiles in The Twin Snakes while you're at it. 03:04, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :: Actually, an easy fix to this issue would be to just include all of this kind of information into an "apocrypha" section somewhere in the page to seperate it from canonically verified information. 03:04, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::Actually you're missing my point. These scenes clearly contradict the events of MGS1 and so are obviously not canon. The game's portrayal is the main story but that doesnt mean it cant be supplemented in other media.--Bluerock 03:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC) There are plenty of sections of dialogue in the novel that contradict the script in MGS1, so how can it be considered valid research to nitpick individual elements out of a complete work that someone personally wants included in the canon? There's no problem with extracurricular supplementing of the narrative, sure, but lets not forget the simple fact that the novel was written by Raymond Benson, and that any knowledge of Kojima's involvement in the writing process is assumptive at best. 03:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::Actually, I heard that the Novelization was written with heavy involvement form Kojima and Payton. Of course, Fantomas should also state where he found the source for that, and even link it if he has to. Plus, it was actually very close to the game by quite a large margin. The only notable difference was the Psycho Mantis fight (For obvious reasons, the Mantis fight from the game could not be adapted from the game to the Novel, as the talk about memory cards and controllers would not have translated well with the novel.) and Gray Fox's "death scene" (as he wasn't squished.). Pretty much everything else was kept as is, and they even added in a few stuff. Weedle McHairybug 03:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : You seem to "hear" a lot of stuff, but that doesn't make it factual or properly cited. Jesus Christ, hearsay is not a valid research method for a wiki. 03:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : ::I'm currently searching for sources, and I also have asked Fantomas to try and supply the sources in regards to the discussion when he has the chance to partake in it. I also started a topic on GameFAQs asking for the source that states that HK and Payton were heavily involved in the writing of the novel. Weedle McHairybug 03:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Thank you. 03:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : :Anyway, TTS is exactly the same story, its just the portrayal thats inferior to the original and non-canon. The book has to be different in some respects since its hard to get the feel of a boss battle in a book. But thats just due to the media. The events described in Snake's past is a different matter, since there's nothing analogous to it in the game.--Bluerock 03:18, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::: The point is that nit-picking individual elements out of an information source amounts to original research and personal deduction; two very frowned upon (and always disallowed) methods of data collection at pretty much every kind of wiki out there, and for good reason. 03:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::: This is fiction, why are you babbling about data collection and such. I advise you to take a look at the Star Wars wikia page as a good example. There are varying levels of canonicity in fiction. The games are the primary canon that override all other media discussing the same event. The secondary canon is referenced only if it is not contradicted by the primary canon. This isn't real life, its just a story that has had input from many writers. --Bluerock 03:34, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :: The principles apply regardless of the subject matter. Like I said earlier, why don't we include an apocrypha section? That'd solve the issue right-quick. 03:39, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Afraid not, many articles feature information that was first revealed in the novel. And the last thing we need is another section for the article. All we need are the references in there so people can see where the info comes from. Besides, few people will understand what the word "apocrypha" means anyway. --Bluerock 03:45, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :: Clarity and accuracy shouldn't be sacrificed due to user ignorance. But if as many articles have information from the novel in them as you say, there's going to be a lot of work to do. 03:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::That's why its best just to leave it as is. The new info has caused no problems in this article. Its an aspect of Snake's past that has been elaborated on in another source. Wheter it was first given in the game or in a book is irrelevant. --Bluerock 04:08, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :: No offense, but while you might be satisfied with leaving in faulty information for the sake of convinience, I (and many other fans out there, I'm sure) am not. 04:10, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :::Who says its faulty? That's just your opinion because you don't like the book. --Bluerock 04:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC) My opinion of the book has nothing to do with it. I've given plenty of reasons why it's both faulty information and faulty reasoning for even considering it to begin with. 04:16, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :None of which are particularly convincing. You just seem to cry out TTS every now and then. You can't apply real-world research methods to different interpretations of a fictional universe. You'll just keep driving in circles.--Bluerock 04:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Actually, I've pointed out completely legitimate types of reasoning for why it shouldn't be included. Most of the counter-argument so far has been little more than the equivalent of "oh, put it in just because..." and attempts to lampshade my argument with this "oh, it's fictional so normal literary rules don't apply" crap? Come on. 04:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, and besides which, the novelizations, or at least the Sons of Liberty novelization, has the Kojima seal of approval, which he wouldn't give if it was not canon or if he hadn't even had a very large hand in directing the novel. Weedle McHairybug 04:26, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Where is this "seal"? What does it say? 04:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :http://www.mishmashmagazine.com/tabid/106/itemid/673/Raymond-Bensons--Sons-of-Liberty.aspx See here. Weedle McHairybug 04:32, March 20, 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry, and I don't mean to be mean, but this is what I'm talking about. There's a certain level of reading comprehension that you seem to lack, as made apparent by some of your earlier replies. In this case, the author of that article isn't being literal; he's referring to the fact that it's licensed by KONAMI. 04:36, March 20, 2010 (UTC) And, hence, is an official source.--Bluerock 04:37, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Copyrights and continuity are two completely different, unrelated subjects 04:43, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Maybe so, but it is intended to be part of continuity. They licensed it so its release could coincide with MGS4 so that people new to the series could read about the story for the first game. --Bluerock 04:52, March 20, 2010 (UTC) That doesn't change the fact that it's an adaptation and shouldn't be taken as gospel. 04:53, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Nothing here can be taken as gospel. Fiction can be retconned all the time, even in the games themselves. --Bluerock 04:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Yeah, retconned by '''the games; by''' Kojima himself'. Not by outside authors who can weild an artistic license. 04:56, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Ok, about continuity. When the Novelization was being written, Metal Gear Solid 4 was still in development. Heck, even when it was published, Metal Gear Solid 4 wasn't released yet (MGS4 was released on June 12th, 2008, and the novelization had been first published on May 27th of 2008.). At a certain point in the novel, Psycho Mantis briefly references Naked Sin, which was part of the ending in Metal Gear Solid 4 (more specifically the part where Old Snake was about commit suicide by putting a gun in his mouth.). Now think about it, do you honestly think that Raymond Benson, regardless of how gifted of a writer he is, would have been able to reference a game that has yet to even be finished with development when he wrote it? The only way he could have known about it to add it in is if Kojima or Payton told him, especially considering how they most likely hadn't settled on an ending yet (For goodness sakes, they originally thought of having Snake and Otacon executed.).). Fantomas, please hurry up and give sources. Weedle McHairybug 04:56, March 20, 2010 (UTC) That's not confirmation at all. All it suggests is that the company gave him related script documents when he was contracted to adapt the story into a novel. This kind of thing happens all the time in literature, especially with novelizations of pre-established works. 04:59, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :If they didn't think his work would be canon, they could have easily just not given him script documents or anything like that. Also, if he was contracted, that obviously means they had to have had some sort of role in it's creation, and thus, it would be canon. Canon means that the creator HAS to have input on the novelization. Weedle McHairybug 05:01, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Of course they had to give him documents; he was contracted to write an adaptation of the novel. They couldn't just tell him to go in blind without any reference material. That's just bad business sense. The fact that they gave him guidelines doesn't bloody well make it canon. Am I the only person here who actually paid attention in College English? 05:04, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Who are you to decide what is canon or not? There will never be an answer from Kojima on that so you may as well accept the aspects of this official novel that add to the overall story and quit whining about it.--Bluerock 05:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Pot? This is kettle. I've got some bad news. 05:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC) You what? :They did it with the DGN as well as Snake's Revenge. Also, they could have just shown him the games only, and not any of the documents. And I definitely doubt that their supplying documents was the reason (Need I really remind you that Snake and Otacon, during development, were originally going to turn themselves in and be executed for their crimes? Had that been in the documents supplied when he was commissioned, I doubt the Naked Sin part would have been in there either.). Weedle McHairybug 05:08, March 20, 2010 (UTC) The justifications you keep trying to push keep changing getting more and more ridiculous. Your arguments are making less and less logical sense, and now you're bringing up Snake's Revenge of all things? And you're suggesting that KONAMI might have just said "Oh, go play the games and watch 20+ hours of cutscenes". Are you serious? Sorry, but multinational corporations tend to have a much more pedantic business sense than that. I'm sorry, but you clearly aren't capable of understanding any of this. 05:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Oh, and here's the exact definition of "Canon" on Wikipedia: :A '''canon', in terms of a fictional universe, is a body of material that is considered to be "genuine" or "official", that can be directly referenced as, or as if it were, material produced by the original author or creator of a series.:Seeing how Konami and Kojima had a hand in it, as well as it being the "official" novel, that means it's canon. You can't have it be official and yet not canon by this definition. Weedle McHairybug 05:15, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Kojima didn't write it. Raymond Benson adapted the script to his own tastes and in his own style. Your argument here is void. 05:18, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Sigh. We're not talking about taste or style of the autor. We're talking about the events that are written about. The same event can be written about in countless different ways but they're still all concerned with that same event.--Bluerock 05:27, March 20, 2010 (UTC) The events that correlate aren't in question here. It's everything else. That should be obvious, so why argue otherwise? 05:53, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Kojima also had absolutely minimal involvement in MPO and MGS4, so should we say that it was non canon as well? Weedle McHairybug 05:21, March 20, 2010 (UTC : That's an invalid comparison for two reasons. One, Kojima has stated that MPO is canon so there's zero room for questioning there. Two, Kojima was greatly involved with MGS4's development. Where did you get the impression otherwise? 05:24, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Because by your logic, that means, since Kojima had barely any involvement with Portable Ops, then regardless if Konami officially recognized Portable Ops, in your logic, it's non-canon since he barely even made it or was involved in it. As for MGS4, there were references to it being mostly not Kojima's work, like "no place for Hideo" or how in one of the previews, it showed Kojima in a backseat role. Weedle McHairybug 05:28, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Actually, that's not the meat of my argument at all, and once again I question your reading comprehension level. If you're not going to take the time to properly read through this discussion and would prefer to knee-jerk respond with anything that sounds "right" to you, please don't bother posting at all. 05:30, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you. In fact, I'm actually a fairly advanced reader (They tested me in the 6th grade, and this is especially notable as they had previously put me in a remedial reading class when they tested me. Also, if my reading comprehension was truly bad, I would not have graduated High School AT ALL. Heck, I wouldn't have even gone past Middle School.). And that was definitely the meat of your arguement, as you were basically saying that Hideo Kojima didn't write it so it shouldn't be considered canon. Weedle McHairybug 05:35, March 20, 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry, but nothing you've written here so far has proven you have anything above a rudimentary understanding of what's being argued. Again, I don't mean to be insultory, but your inability to understand some of these very simple principles is proving very frustrating. Again, to elaborate, my argument that information from the novels shouldn't be included is based on a culmination of several issues that I've already stated; it's about more than just the fact that Kojima didn't write it, though that is an element of it. To be more specific, while MPO might not have been as heavily developed by Kojima as other titles, the canonicity of the game isn't in question because of the overt approval and confirmation that Kojima has given on the subject. In the case of this novel, however, there's no reaffirmation or evidence apart from hearsay and speculation. Does that help? 05:42, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Why would they even commission him to try and write a Metal Gear Solid novel if it was not meant to be canon anyways? They could have easily not have requested him to make a novel, as well as his doing it out of a hobby. Weedle McHairybug 05:47, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Entertainment? Adaptations are meant to be entertaining, alternate perspectives on things we're already familiar with, based on the medium at hand. It's the same mentality as when a book is adapted into a film. Ask yourself, how often have you seen a film follow a book's original content to the letter? Also, money. 05:50, March 20, 2010 (UTC) :Man, I really wish Fantomas responds soon... Anyways, in this particular case, they did follow it up to the letter, or at least came close. Weedle McHairybug 05:53, March 20, 2010 (UTC) They may have followed the overall plot progression, but there are plenty of nuances and details that were completely changed or plucked out of thin air. 05:55, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::It's official material from Konami. Wether Kojima is directly behind it or not is irrelevant, as long as it's "official". Kojima probably didn't have a hand in the novel, but I doubt he hand wrote every article of the MGS4 Database either, but everything in that is taken as canon, because it's official. I'm not going to lie to you guys though, I didn't read any of the discussion above. --Fantomas 10:35, March 20, 2010 (UTC)